Ein kleines demokratisches Forum für Leute, die gerne und überall barfuß laufen oder dies gerne mal ausprobieren möchten. Es wird darauf hingewiesen, daß sexistische sowie beleidigende Beiträge kommentarlos gelöscht werden.
Dieses Forum wird gegenwärtig von Lebenskünstler, André Uhres & Dominik R. gemanagt. Wir sind jederzeit für Anregungen & Kritik empfänglich.
www.barfuss-forum.de
“Nach dem Gewaltmarsch am Morgen waren die Quergewölbe meiner Füße nun vollkommen durchgetreten und schmerzten. Da eine Überquerung der Elbe entlang der Trogbrücke aber nur zu Fuß (oder nicht verfügbarem 2-Rad) und nicht per 4-Rad möglich war, verband ich das Unangenehme mit dem Nützlichen und zog meine Turnschuhe mit Einlagen an - was bei mir in solchen Fällen tatsächlich hilft.”
“Ob ich damals nur vor meinen Senk-Spreizfüßen im Allgemeinen kapitulierte (nach ca. 200km barfuß sind immer wieder ca. 10-20km in Schuhen mit Einlagen fällig)”
Auf Deine Nachfrage hin antwortete ich schließlich ausführlichste in:
ich muß nach ca. 200km Barfußlaufen immer ca. 20 km Einlagen tragen - sonst schmerzen meine SPREIZ-Füße unerträglich.
SENK-Füße sind dagegen kein Problem.
Ist wohl ein Folge durch Überlastung und Übergewicht...
Hab jetzt wohl Maß-Flipflps (Einlagen als Flipflops ausgearbeitet) für sündhaft teure 148€. Besser als geschlossene Schuhe mit Einlagen. Hab ich jetzt oft beim Radfahren an.
Mein Vorgehen:
1. Wenn Füße schmerzen, Einlagen tragen. - Das ist erst sehr unangenehm... 2. Sobals Einlagen im Quergewölbe nicht mehr unangenehm drücken, ist das Quergewölbe wieder aufgerichtet und ich laufe ab dann wieder barfuß.
Die meisten Orthopäden empfehlen nur noch in Schuhen mit Einlagen zu tragen.(Wenn es nicht hilft, operieren sie gerne.
Andere verteufeln Einlagen total und führen einenn regelrechtren Kreuzzug dagegen.
Für Leute, deren Füße zu klein für ihr Gewicht geraten sind, empfiehlt sich me.E der beschriebene Mittelweg...
Eine lebhafte Diskussion zum Thema gab es gerade im amerikanischen Barfuß-Forum:
I am supposed to wear orthotics since my childhood. At the age of 47 I finally started walking barefoot. By then a lot of damage had been done to my feet and despite wearing orthotics I got hammer toes… They have meanwhile vanished!
But after a month or 2 despite muscle training by walking barefoot, my splayfeet become totally flat again and begin to hurt. Then I need to wear orthotics for a walking distance of about 20 to 30 km. (The more I walk, the sooner I can get rid of orthotics and shoes again.) At first, the orthotics are very uncomfortable to my totally flat feet. If they become to feel sort of comfortable (except for the sweaty shoes, of course) the arches of my feet have been built up again and I can walk barefoot again.
The last time at -15 deg C this procedure did not feel too uncomfortable - but in summer it is always horrible!
I came across several ads (commercials) for a custom-made flipflop/thong - produced by an orthopedic shoe- and orthotic-maker. Everything reminded me of my orthotics:
Yes, if you state your foot problems you get an orthotic provided with a walking sole and straps that you can just wear like a flipflop/thong, Much better than traditional orthotics in sweaty shoes - but very expensive and no orthotics prescription accepted…
Some people are totally against orthotics and claim: Just walk barefoot and your problems will disappear!
Well, splayfeet have 2 main causes: - Being overweight - Wrong footwear
So throwing your shoes away will easily stop the second cause - and I am still fighting against the first (actually, since my childhood - and at 57 it does not get easier).
--- In sbl-list@yahoogroups.com, "Edith" wrote: > > Yes it isn't that simple as to just throw away the shoe and orthotics...but > it is possible over time to sort out many problems without needing to resort > to props.... >
Just to emphasize: I threw my shoes and orthotics away more than 10 years ago.
> > The difficulty is that walking in shoes encourages overall gait to be odd in > some humans..ie. They will put too much weight onto the heels
Nearly all young children have a forefoot to midfoot gait. But then you are trained to walk “properly” by your parents in stiff shoes: Land on your heel and roll off.
When I started walking barefoot I also landed on my heels as usual. My feet and my knees hurt - and the bump when I clashed to the ground at every step even reached my head. This was obviously not very healthy… Some shoddies therefore argue walking barefoot is healthy only on soft grounds.
Well, if walking barefoot were really healthy I would do something wrong.
I searched the web and found barefoot forums and thus learned the benefits of forefoot gait. The soft landing was obviously much more comfortable, although my muscles had to learn working again.
> and some > simply walk well behind their feet..which tends to encourage the hammer toes > etal...like the foot is trying to hang on to make up for the weight being > back behind...
Actually, splayfeet (and at last hammer toes, once the transverse arch is completely flat) are caused by too much strain (for the muscles) on the forefoot! (So landing on the heels is even better for splayfeet minimizing forefoot strain.) I tried changing my gait and finally ended up with a sort of midfoot gait as the best compromise.
> It takes a while to actually get the forefoot to develop enough flexibility to move properly
And within the last nearly 11 years I have gained back much of the foot’s flexibility and should have strengthened my muscles sufficiently…
> Just going barefoot will encourage the muscles under the foot but it doesn't > necessarily develop them as you want them...
Before walking barefoot I had 2 major problems: Flat feet (longitudinal arch) and splayfeet (transversal arch). Now, the longitudinal arch is absolutely no problem whatsoever and my footprints show perfect longitudinal arches.
.> ..yes weight can be a factor but those little muscles are pretty good... > they can be encouraged into existence.. > afte rall the thigh muscles have adjusted for your weight...
So there is my conclusion: My thigh and especially my calf muscles look quite impressive (already since my shod days) - and also the foot muscles maintaining the longitudinal arch must have become stronger than before without any sort of special workout gymnastics - so that flat feet are no problem any more.
But why do these damn transversal arch muscle just not grow to the enhanced need of me walking barefoot? My personal theory: It is just a space problem: My feet are rather small and there is just not enough space for the muscles to grow to a sufficient extent. I’m afraid, I am back to the main cause: My feet are too small for my weight - and they just won’t grow (or the other way round)…
Another funny thing: There is not just that irreversible slowly flattening long-term effect I fight every 2 months or so wearing my orthotics for 20 to 30 km, but also a reversible short time effect. It is most pronounced after cycling (barefoot, of course!): After every bike tour of more than 20km my splay feet are totally flat and the first few steps after parking the bike really hurt. But after a few hours they have normalized again.
So even if it is hard for some to believe: Wearing orthotics (in my case: from time to time) does help some people.
Leo --- In sbl-list@yahoogroups.com, "Edith" wrote: > > … big calves can > suggest that the gait isn't working in the best functional fashion
„Forefoot striking barefoot or in minimal footwear requires you to use muscles in your feet (mostly in the arch) that are probably very weak. Running this way also requires much more strength in your calf muscles than heel striking“
> ...well it would be highly unusual that you were born disportionate with no > chance of changing....
I clearly stated that my calf and longitudinal arch muscles did change as described here:
> it is more likely that you still have not 'found' and > used the muscles that hold that arch in its proper place... you would be a > rare human not to have them....
When cycling barefoot I always automatically find them and give them such an overload that afterwards the transverse arches are totally flat and show overtraining symptoms:
>> Another funny thing: There is not just that irreversible slowly flattening >> long-term effect I fight every 2 months or so wearing my orthotics for 20 to >> 30 km, but also a reversible short time effect. It is most pronounced after >> cycling (barefoot, of course!): After every bike tour of more than 20km my >> splay feet are totally flat and the first few steps after parking the bike >> really hurt. But after a few hours they have normalized again. > > ..suspect that has something to do with 1. Which part of foot you use on the > pedal,
Well, you don‘t really have much choice: If you position your feet too much to the front, you will easily slip off to the back. If you place the pedals right within your longitudinal arch (in order to reduce forefoot strain) it will soon become very uncomfortable. Just the heels on the pedal? They will slip off very soon. Luckily, the most efficient forefoot foot position on the pedal is also a very stable bare foot position:
> … which of course goes against your belief that > you don't need to do anything special with your foot muscles..you clearly do > if they have not managed to come back to life post a decade of walking > barefoot...
As an electrical engineer my scientific view of the world is not governed by dogmatic beliefs and proselytization/missionization but observations and experiments based on established facts:
„Physiological strength: Vertebrate muscle typically produces approximately 25 N (5.6 lbf) of force per square centimeter of muscle cross-sectional area when isometric and at optimal length. … If "strength" refers to the force exerted by the muscle itself, e.g., on the place where it inserts into a bone, then the strongest muscles are those with the largest cross-sectional area. This is because the tension exerted by an individual skeletal muscle fiber does not vary much. Each fiber can exert a force on the order of 0.3 micronewton.“
So the only way to significantly increase muscle force, is to increase muscle diameter. This worked perfectly fine for all my muscles except those needed for maintaining the transversal arch - maybe because unlike the other muscles they just have not enough space to grow to the required extent (my unproven theory).
But the muscle power also depends on the length of the muscle:
It means the more the transversal arch breaks down, the more the muscles supposed to maintain it are stretched and the weaker they become.
> So even if it is hard for some to believe: Wearing orthotics (in my case: > from time to time) does help some people.
And thus I now have 2 theories why:
1. They stop the vicious circle due to constant overtraining by i.e. barefoot cycling 2. They passively rise the transversal arches and drive the muscle length and thus force back to the range of maximum power
> ..well sorry I cannot accept that with the right therapy and encouragement > of muscles under the foot they will not regain their meant to be glory...you > have not proved to me that you have done any real therapy - in fact you > appear to feel it is something to be avoided....so I rest my case....
And you have not proved that therapy will help. Others, also promoting foot gymnastics are not quite as dogmatic about it:
„Strengthen Your Feet: If you had spent your entire life barefoot, you wouldn’t need any specific foot-strengthening exercises – foot strength would have developed naturally – but you haven’t, so now you need them.“ (After nearly 11 years I should slowly qualify for not needing.)
In addition to scientific evidence and dogmatic beliefs there is something else in human behaviour patterns: Likes and dislikes.
I like swimming - I dislike gymnastics like e.g. situps. Normally swimming keeps my back muscles in a shape good enough to prevent back pain. Last year I could not swim for several months - and my back pain convinced me to occasional gymnastics after all. (Sure, after restarting to swim regularly I meanwhile stopped again.)
I like natural movement in the open air like walking, cycling or cross country-skiing. This keeps all the muscles used in form in a pleasant way. At the beginning of winter I always become aware of a sore leg muscle I have apparently not used during summer at all - but it is essential for uphill cross country skiing. (No, I won’t listen to any workout orthodox trying to talk me from enjoying nature into a steamy gym room in summer for proper workout - where I would be forced to wear shoes, anyway.)
Back to the transverse arch muscles: I enjoy training them automatically by walking and cycling. I don’t really like my orthotics - but wearing them from time to time as described is acceptable - especially with the new summer version.
Others with less weight or larger feet and a shorter barefoot career may find your approach more promising and favourable. So let’s everyone decide for themself.
Leo Hi Edith,
--- In sbl-list@yahoogroups.com, "Edith" wrote: > As you are an engineer let me pose one question to you.... What about any of > the supposed 'arches' of a foot really resemble the type of arch we > generally see in building structures holding up everything? > > As pointed out to me by an enlightened podiatrist during a training course > last year...the bones cannot be called an arch -they don't > really have the arch like features in bone shape...
So now you widen the target are of your crusade from orthotic believers to foot arch believers?
I‘m the wrong target, anyhow:
1. As an ELECTRICAL engineer I am no expert on arches - and I don‘t really mind if the structure in my forefoot really is an arch as often claimed:
As long as my feet don‘t hurt, I really don‘t care if and what sort of arches they have and if these are made up of bones or whatever else. But if my footprints begin to look like those marked „loss of transversal arch“ in the reference above, they hurt. I don’t mind if the explanation in the reference above is correct or not:
„E Location of pain associated with splayfoot…The collapse of the transverse arch results in a broadened forefoot… Typically, very painful calluses will form between the balls and the little toes in this situation.“
Anyhow, the localization of the pain does coincide with my observation.
2. Hence, what is commonly referred to as „fallen transversal arch“ hurts. Then I feel the need to do something about it. I am no firm orthotic believer, totally convinced that splayfeet patients should wear orthotics at all times. But I find wearing orthotics from time to time is acceptable and it stops my pain - you believe even after 11 years of barefooting I still need special foot muscle workout.
> Yes putting them under your 'transverse arch' may feel a little > better....possibly helps some already stretched out muscle somewhere under > your foot take a breather for a moment, but in my world it is better to find > the right muscles for providing that support 24 hrs a day
Despite my example of that funny cross-country-skiing muscle I always find and manage to work out automatically in winter, you still accuse me of not having found the proper foot muscles. The easiest remedy of fallen arches is just to walk barefoot:
“Walking around without the constraints of footwear can increase blood circulation to your feet, relieve tension, stretch foot tendons, and maintain and recreate healthy arches while also strengthening foot muscles.”
And by starting that nearly 11 years ago I have extended the pain-free period without orthotics from much less than a week to 2 months. Unfortunately, I can’t extend this period to infinity and when my feet begin to hurt again I wear othotics from time to time. Although I would be even happier totally without them, this solution of my problem is acceptable for me. But in your crusade against orthotics even limited short-term use it is apparently not acceptable to you.
> each to their own and I don't have to live with your feet so it isn't really > my problem.
Then why just not stop our discussion here? You won‘t find any real orthotic fanatics here anyway.
3. Your real target: Many orthopaedic specialists think that any person with any foot problem should NOT walk barefoot at all. Once, I met one in a train who took a very close look at my feet and asked me: „How can you possibly manage to walk barefoot with your splay feet?“ He was very impressed I could indeed and said he expected a splayfoot patient like me to necessarily wear orthotics all the time, in order to avoid pain. I explained I did have to wear them from time to time but very rarely. Like many open-minded health professionals he ended with: „OK, who cures is right!“
Here I found one example of the common approach to splayfeet, however:
A therapy is only necessary when the patient suffers from discomfort. Mostly, a lasting disimpaction of a sunken-in traverse cannot usually be achieved, but there several therapies to reduce the patients discomfort and to relieve the foot. The possible non-surgical therapies are:
• Foot gymnastics • Relieving the pressure sores by wearing wide, comfortable shoes • Splay foot inlays • Contrast bathing • Immobilisation, when irritated • Anti-inflammatory painkillers
Metatarso-phalangeal bones and toe deformities may be corrected surgically (… hammer toe…). There are a variety of surgical procedures suitable for the treatment of single toes, depending on the severity of the deformity and the discomfort experienced by the patient..“
As I child the combination of 30 minutes foot gymnastics per day and always wearing orthotics in always stiff shoes proved useless - and my hammertoes became worse and worse instead.
I am so happy meanwhile barefooting has stopped my discomfort and I don‘t rely on orthopaedic SURGEONS to stop it - after first talking me to wearing orthotics and shoes 99% of the time.
Edith, you should fight against the 99% of the time they make their patients wear orthotics - and not against the 1% of the time I wear them!
Leo
An meinem Standpunkt hta sich seitdem nichts geändert! Die neue Variante ist natürlich wesentlich angenehmer als Einlagen in Schuhen.
ich glaube zwar nicht, daß man Fußschäden durch dauerndes Barfußgehen vollständig beheben oder heilen kann, aber man ihnen erfolgreich entgegenwirken und manches wiedergutmachen. Von Einlagen halte ich gar nichts, weil die als künstliche Stützen die Muskeln, welche diese Aufgabe bei Barfußläufern übernehmen, verkümmern lassen. Eine Ausnahme besteht vielleicht bei Übergewicht, welches dazu führt, daß das Fußgewölbe zu stark eingedrückt wird.
da ich in der Vergangenheit sehr unter starkem Übergewicht litt, muß ich aber wirklich sagen, daß ich zum Glück keinerlei Fußschäden wie senk-/Spreizfuß, Plattfuß oder derartige Fußdeformationen davontrug. Ich muß meinen Füßen wirklich ein dikkes Kompliment aussprechen. Ich denke aber, daß starkes Übergewicht sehr wohl zu Fußdeformationen führen kann. Schließlich müssen sie unser gesamtes Gewicht tragen, welches sich durch rennen, springen und so durchaus potenzieren kann. Ich hatte hier wirklich sehr großes Glück gehabt.
Fußdeformationen kann man sicherlich mit Krankengymnastik und so entgegenwirken. Als ich noch so schwer war - obwohl ich damit nicht sagen will, daß ich heute ein leichtes Mädchen bin (der Flachs mußte mal wieder sein), litt ich aber sehr stark unter Fersensporn und Problemen mit den Achillessehnen, was ich aber auch auf das Übergewicht beziehe. Deswegen war ich damals bei einem Orthopäden, der mich anmaulte, weil ich barfuß zur Untersuchung kam. Darüber hatte ich ja berichtet. Seit das Übergewicht weg ist, hatte ich bislang - toi toi toi - keine Fußprobleme mehr. Ich weiß nicht, Dominik, ob Deine Fußprobleme zwingend mit dem Übergewicht im Zusammenhang stehen. Es können auch andere Gründe dafür verantwortlich sein - ich bin keine Orthopädin. Ich war bedeutend schwerer als Du und hatte keine Fußprobleme - bis auf das weiter oben genannte. Du solltest vielleicht Fußgmnastik machen und so das Fußgewölbe stabilisieren. Sprich doch mal mit Deinem Arzt darüber. Es ist allerdings immer das gleiche Lied: die Orthopäden wollen einem ständig irgendwelche idiotischen Einlagen verschreiben, was für Barfußläufer wirklich "äußerst sinnvoll" ist. Ein Orthopäde meinte sogar, als ich mit Achillesprobleme zu ihm kam, ich soll Cowboystiefel anziehen, weil die einen höheren Absatz haben. Da könnte ich ja gleich meine High-Heels tragen, zumal ich Cowboystiefel nicht mag. Man kann diese ja unter seinen Füßen mit Klebeband oder so fixieren und damit durch die Gegend hatschen ...
Kannst ja mal selbst probieren: einen Bleistift oder sonstiges mit den Zehen greifen und so. Dies mußt Du aber regelmäßig tun, denn sonst hat das keinen Sinn. Hier auch einen Link für Fußgymnastik.
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(der Flachs mußte mal wieder sein), litt ich aber sehr stark unter Fersensporn und Problemen mit den Achillessehnen, was ich aber auch auf das Übergewicht beziehe. Deswegen war ich damals bei einem Orthopäden, der mich anmaulte, weil ich barfuß zur Untersuchung kam. Darüber hatte ich ja berichtet. Seit das Übergewicht weg ist, hatte ich bislang - toi toi toi - keine Fußprobleme mehr. Ich weiß nicht, Dominik, ob Deine Fußprobleme zwingend mit dem Übergewicht im Zusammenhang stehen. Es können auch andere Gründe dafür verantwortlich sein - ich bin keine Orthopädin. Ich war bedeutend schwerer als Du und hatte keine Fußprobleme - bis auf das weiter oben genannte. Du solltest vielleicht Fußgmnastik machen und so das Fußgewölbe stabilisieren. Sprich doch mal mit Deinem Arzt darüber. Es ist allerdings immer das gleiche Lied: die Orthopäden wollen einem ständig irgendwelche idiotischen Einlagen verschreiben, was für Barfußläufer wirklich "äußerst sinnvoll" ist. Ein Orthopäde meinte sogar, als ich mit Achillesprobleme zu ihm kam, ich soll Cowboystiefel anziehen, weil die einen höheren Absatz haben. Da könnte ich ja gleich meine High-Heels tragen, zumal ich Cowboystiefel nicht mag. Man kann diese ja unter seinen Füßen mit Klebeband oder so fixieren und damit durch die Gegend hatschen 
...
